The Gaming Den

I know what Lago thinks of D20 Modern, but what of the rest of you guys?

It's a good adaptation of d20 for PCs of most humanoid races to play in a gun-and-vehicle-dependant setting, but the monsters have much to be desired.
The class system is awesome since it's halfway between an entirely custom 'classless', and normal class-based D&D. Many options availible.

IMO d20 Future is cooler since the whole concept of encounter balance is practically thrown out the window. Anyone can have big guns, cybernetics, powersuits, or badass ships but availibility all comes down to cash just like in real life (which is handled with those nifty 'wealth checks'; still trying to find ways D&D can use such a thing)

Since the power of a PC and party is mostly equipment driven, if you limit racial choices to exclude the more exotic types, advancement and pace are direct products of whatever the GM throws at the players rather than game-wrecking spellcasting (spells are sorta limited, like as in L10 casters rather than L20 in D&D, which is somewhat a good thing)

Also, I have been considering the True Sorcery Spell Caster's Modern Variant. The only broken thing so far Frank has pointed out was "Pattern," where adding to the Spellcraft DC to extend the duration of an unconscious opponent on a 1-1 basis for rounds. As he has yet to say anything else bad about the system, other than it being broken, I am going to try it out.
However, I have a problem with D20 Modern as a setting; one player in my group loves magic, the Force, etc., and his enjoyment of the game would be affected if there were no magic system for PCs, on the chance that we played a "magic-less" setting for D20 Modern.

In addition, I made a couple of House Rules:

Basic Classes:

For the Fast Hero, Evasion has Defensive Roll, Uncanny Dodge 1, and Uncanny Dodge 2 as prerequisites. It is incredibly powerful as a talent, much more powerful than Defensive Roll, which involves rolling a Reflex Save against a DC equal to the damage dealt.
Defensive Roll has no prerequisites, Uncanny Dodge 1 has Defensive Roll as a prerequisite, while UD 2 has UD 1 and Defensive Roll as a prerequisite.
To prevent one level dips, the Fast Hero's Defense Progression has been altered:
1st-1
2nd-2
3rd-2
4th-3
5th-4
6th-4
7th-5
8th-6
9th-6
10th-7

Advanced Classes

The Techie gains a bonus on jury-rigging checks equal to +2 at 1st level, +4 at 4th level, +6 at 7th level, and +8 at 10th level.

At 1st level, the Investigator’s Profile ability is replaced with this effect of the same name: Profile. The Investigator rolls an Investigate check equal to 10+ the criminal(s) character level(s) with a bonus on his check equal to his levels in Investigator, using the modifications for the crime scene under the Investigate skill as normal. The Investigator can learn two pieces of information, plus an additional piece per 5 points that the Investigate check is over the DC. This piece of information can include the criminal(s) possible race, sex, gender, character level, financial status, and motive. The Investigator can use this ability multiple times, provided that he has enough time for each check. Each check takes 1d4+1 hours of investigating the crime scene.

At 4th level, the Investigator replaces his Nonlethal Force ability with this effect: Insight: The Investigator selects two skills from this list: Gather Information, Investigate, Listen, Research, Search, and Spot. The Investigator gains a bonus on these skill checks equal to his levels in Investigators. The Investigator selects another two skills at 7th level and 10th level. These respectively replace Discern Lie and Sixth Sense.

At 1st level, the Personality replaces her Unlimited Access class feature with this class feature: Don’t You Know Who I Am?: The Personality can add her Reputation Bonus to her Wealth Score. Famous People use their Reputation to get things that they would not be able to ordinarily get.

The Bodyguard replaces Combat Sense+1 at 2nd level with Combat Expertise. If the Bodyguard already has Combat Expertise as a feat, he can select another feat that he meets the prerequisites for. The Bodyguard can apply his bonus to Defense on the ally that he has selected for Harm’s Way instead of on himself. At 8th level, the Bodyguard can gain a penalty up to his Base Attack Bonus and apply the penalty as a bonus on his Defense. This replaces Combat Sense+2.

The Bodyguard’s Defensive Strike has by this effect: Reflexive Action: The Bodyguard can roll a Reflex Save whenever his ally that he has designated Harm’s Way has to roll a Reflex Save, including area effects. If the Bodyguard succeeds on the check, he pushes his ally out of the way and has to roll a Reflex save normally to see if he succeeds or fails to avoid taking the effects.

For Bodyguard’s Blanket Protection, the Defense Bonus is equal to the Bodyguard’s level divided by 2. The Bodyguard can add his Combat Expertise bonus to Defense to his allies instead of himself, provided the allies are within 30 feet of him.

Feats

Toughness gives Hit Points equal to your character level/hit dice. It can only be taken once.

Overall, how is it balanced game-wise?

Also, what is the "fulcrum," or balancing point, by which to judge things by in d20 Modern?

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1190567938[/unixtime]]

The problem is that as a TN system, the average result is basically meaningless, only the chance of getting a specific result or better. So an exploding d4 averages 3.35, while an exploding d6 averages 4.2 or something. But that all means jack shit the instant you get a TN of 6. Because the exploding d4 gets that 3/16 times and the exploding d6 gets that 3/18 times.

-Username17

SW's concept of getting a 'raise' if you beat the TN by 4 throws another wrench back in the works too, as in my example the d6 guy is much more likely to hit the raise of 10 for a TN of 6

However, it does come up frequently, infact it comes up all the dang time as range modifiers in the SW system stack up soooo fast.

Again, speaking about deadlands (which has some more problems I will refer to in a moment) TNs shoot all the way up to 10 in most 'normal' combat situations because the way the rules favour lying down as a great combat action, combined with a -4 for range and you are done.

However, as I said, not a really huge problem. It throws the percentages around by +/- 10%, which is much the same as assigning someone a random +/- 2 modifier each time they roll the dice in D&D. Annoying, but not an issue.

The problem with deadlands:SW is just how much better some characters are than others. SO MUCH better.

Veteran of the weird west allows you to start off with 8 more character points than a normal starting character, if you where going to be a magic user anyway (for reference a normal character starts the game with 27), and the ability to have 3rd edition haste right out of the blocks.

The down side is you have a 2/13 chance of starting with a completely crippled character, 6/13 of starting out with a story disadvantage, and a 5/13 chance of getting a real material disadvantage, most of which if you took at character generation anyway would give you 2 points.

And some of the magic users can cast spells as a free action (once per 'action')

So a viable combat sequence for a huckster is Haste, draw, shoot , reload, move to cover, Blast with spells, shoot with gun, reload, hit the deck. With skill totals that rival a dedicated gunslinger in all capacities who didn't start out with veteran.

Whereas a standard 'gunslinger' can only do 'draw, shoot, reload, duck' there by firing 1/3 to a 1/4 as often as the magic user. Huckster runs a slim risk of the blast spells blowing up in his face, but that can be mitigated against.

Blessed still use actions to cast spells, but are just made of win, as their spell casting has no downsides (like hucksters) and only requires one skill and a stat they would get anyway (unlike chi masters who require a skill and an advantage for *each* spell)

Oh and they get every spell for free at the start of the game, where other spellcasters start with 1-3 spells and need to pay 2 character points to get an additional spell.

Sttttupppiidddd.

Edit: to be explictly clear, the problem is with deadlands:SW rather than the SW rules, which I actually kinda like aside from the stupid TN thing but I can live with that.

Decent and reasonable, Bleach.
IMO there's no starting point for balance in d20: one must judge each spell, attack form, class, item, race, everything, to each other factor.
For instance, to begin comparing simple bonus feats, then see how many a LA+0 race or first level of a class usually contains and snowball from there.
Linear growth in power is easy to notice and control, as with d20 Modern and Future classes but exponential growth sometimes has unpredictable consequences (for reasons members of this forum have stated repeatedly)

I believe most d20 games are adapted straight from D&D, which was in turn based on AD&D, which was slapped together from 1e D&D, a game compiled from a ragtag mess of in-jokes, ripped off fantasy novels, and no-regrets style spell design.
This is the cause of our current displeasure and anything coming close to being truly 'balanced' needs to distance from most of classical D&D concepts.

So I just judged d20 Modern by how fun it was within the setting it held, which was guns, vehicles, and warrior-type combat, which is usually fast and fun by default. And so d20 Modern is IMO good at what it is.

Did you have any opinion on True Sorcery? I remember asking about it by making a thread about it, but I can't remember if you replied or not.
Also, what are decent and reasonable about my house rules, if I must ask?

I know nothing of True Sorcery but I do remember you mentioned it a while ago.
Probably in context of comparing Vancian to possible replacements?

As for your rules, I'm always in favor of altering the Modern traits to have less requirements. Did so myself.
I like options for making both PC and NPC, and their trait-chains had some odd progressions at times.
Granted, it made sense (sorta) that certain abilities should be delayed until the third or fourth trait, but when looking at the Hero class trait gain I realized that's fuckin late in their career.
This is a setting where, while the average citizen can get some damned high bonuses compared to the average medieval peasant, deathrate is still possibly high. A single gunshot can wipe out your Fast Hero or an unbuckled car crash kill pretty much anyone but the toughest.
Life is short, no need to wait for that "DR 1/-" or some weird specific social skill.

I'd even go so far as to say that skills in Modern and Future shouldn't be limited by character level; they should have no cap.
I'd say same about HP (like from high CON) and attack bonus, like a weirder E6 variant, but can't quite figure out how that would work.
Maybe special cross-class only skills for Defense and Offense, the first simulating high character levels for determining bonus HP, and the second for likewise granting higher BAB.
Maybe a Speed one for movement and dodge bonuses.

wrote:I know what Lago thinks of D20 Modern, but what of the rest of you guys?

... Lago's opinion is probably all you need. Throw in RC's as well while you are at it.

But me, I love to put that system down.

I ran an extensive d20modern/cthulhu campaign and various adventures of the same hybrid. I eventually dumped the d20modern part due to its general levels of stupid.

Major problems.
1) Guns and explosives totally kill you, and everyone else in the lower levels.

2) Monsters of your CR always totally kill you.

3) Its the same dumb spell casting system only delayed by 1-5 mandatory multiclass levels.

So its still insane, only now with additional enforced suck.

4) Everyone ever is a Fast hero.

Until prestige classes but frankly if you are playing d20modern at a level where prestige classes happen you yourself are probably a level 4 Masochist (level 5 Fast for quickest entry into the masochist prestige requirements, of course).

All other base classes might SAY they are called "Strong, Charismatic, YoMomma" but they infact are all called "Stupid" since they are in almost all ways weaker and less versatile than being Fast.

Barring some wierd edge case like where you NEED BAB real early and are prepared to live with the frustration and general inferiority of say, being a Strong wannabe Prestige whatever rather than a Fast one.

5) Talents Suck, REALLY REALLY SUCK.
Evasion is the best talent ever. Period. Everything else is depressingly massively weaker and less interesting than that.

Strong heroes seriously run around tucking like multiple +1 damage in melee talents under their belt as their "thing". Don't get me started on the agony of being a Wise or Smart hero.

6) Everyone and their mother Hates Action points.
And if you don't then I hate you too.

And your action point loving mother.

But seriously, how tacked on, surpurfluous, pointlessly complexificating and ultimately REALLY annoying are they?


Ultimately I recomment you never ever use d20modern for anything. If you think it works, or any concept it introduced works, you haven't looked hard enough.

The only thing I have ever found that DOES make d20modern work is Macho Women With Guns. It makes it work using two cunning methods.

1) Macho Women with guns is a total joke of a game. So the fact that it builds on a system which is itself a total joke is actually oddly appropriate.

2) Even so the levels of suckitude in d20modern are too great FOR EVEN MACHO WOMEN TO DEFEAT, WITH GUNS, so the talents, proffessions, prestige classes, and even badly misprinted magic rules it introduces are all in every way superior to and an improvement on the core d20modern rules.

So In summation my opinion on d20modern is.

It sucks.

I am fairly certain I am in agreement with basically everyone on that.

Macho Women with guns actually makes it better.

That last point is probably an indication of how much it sucks.

Even after that it still sucks.

What I want to know, Captain, is why the fact that every system sucks has got you down. I mean, just pick one and go. Fucking revel in the silliness inherent in every system; that's actually part of the fun. As each system has its own peculiarly fucktarded aspects, each system will give a different experience. Just have fun with that. In D&D, go wild with the spellcasting and laugh with your buds as you stomp around the world in magic-powered mecha. In Call of Cthulhu, have a blast with the fact that every character's got a steadily accelerating countdown to gibbering insanity, and that the better you get at dealing with the Cthulhu mythos (which is really very good at all) the more quickly you approach utter lunacy. In World of Darkness (old or new), go crazy with the mind control and social powerz, all the time wondering why anyone would ever bother to engage in actual combat. In Palladium, chortle as you rift a mutant weasel to Ninjas and Superspies before rifting him to Rifts proper to be juiced, ending up able to go take on War and Famine in an epic battle accompanied by your M.D. friend who really doesn't belong in the mercenary profession.

RPGs are just there to be freakin' funny, really, no matter what the magical tea party fanatics will tell you.

Then what about d20 Modern where every class is the same, you can get any traits and feats you want, and the 'chassis' for Hit Die varies between combat or skilled...

As in
Combat Hero: 1/1 BAB, better Dodge, better HP like d10, low skill points, or
Skilled Hero: 3/4 BAB, poor Dodge, HP around d6, skill like Rogue
Then choose 2 good saves, and cap level at 6.

Although I could state that going completely classless would work too, since your average 18 y.o. burger flipper probably has no combat experience, little HP, few skills, but maybe the odd trick here or there.
I view class system in a modern/future setting to still be too limiting but don't know yet how well an encounter would go with a 4 person party involving PC with
one with 90% of his 6-levels-worth of feats used on BAB and HP
one with the combat ability of a L1 Commoner but skills like a L10 Rogue
one with almost all social skills, especially Bluff and Diplomacy with related trick-feats or abilities
one with nothing but gun-enhancing feats

Of course, I mean that they would have some averages between them like a mandatory (or bonus) amount of HP/save advancement depending on the number of total feats possessed...
What's your opinions of that?

wrote: Then what about d20 Modern where every class is the same, you can get any traits and feats you want, and the 'chassis' for Hit Die varies between combat or skilled...

See now Frank on the wacky tobacky cowboy thread seems to be of the opinion that its OK to trade off social vs combat prowess in a modern game.

Now me, I'm not sure that is EVER good.

But even if it is, even by his reasoning presented in that thread it is because you make combat quick and simple, or irrelevant to advancing the plot, and everything happens so fast everyone gets to be a mover and shaker and no one feels like they spend all the time twiddling their thumbs.

But this is D20 combat. So that is even less likely to fly.

Also.

There is ALREADY only one class in d20 modern, its the Fast class, it has the best dodge, the best talents, the best skills, and pretty close to the best HD and BAB.

Is that bad or good? I don't know but the other classes sure were a waste of ink and paper now weren't they.

Anyway. No, I don't like having a choice between surviving combat with jaws or alternately knowing how to fix the austin martin's RPG launcher and chat up octapussy. I demand that a modern character be able to BOTH survive combat AND look smart.

wrote:but don't know yet how well an encounter would go with a 4 person party involving PC with
one with 90% of his 6-levels-worth of feats used on BAB and HP
one with the combat ability of a L1 Commoner but skills like a L10 Rogue
one with almost all social skills, especially Bluff and Diplomacy with related trick-feats or abilities
one with nothing but gun-enhancing feats

Here's a hint.

It ends badly.

The start and the middle aren't so great either.

wrote:Of course, I mean that they would have some averages between them like a mandatory (or bonus) amount of HP/save advancement depending on the number of total feats possessed...
What's your opinions of that?

What? On preventing people from being a glass cannon that can only shoot at knowledge (Star Trek: Voyager) checks?

I suggest you do not go far enough. At that rate perhaps a class system may well be in order.

edit: Cool, I got kitten censored.

I agree with Frank on that then.

Noticed the censor... that was funny...

It's possible to not completely suck in d20 modern.

We've already covered the fast hero. For mid-level pwnage, you want to be a Field Officer (d20 future), a Gangster (d20 past), a Shadow Slayer (same book), or a Gunslinger (same book). The Gunslinger is downright marginal which should tell you the level of suck d20 modern operates at.

For higher level pwnage, there's the Martial Artist (same book), Psionic Agent (Urban Arcana), Holy Knight (Urban Arcana), Shifter (d20 Web Enhancement), and Shaman (d20 past).

Seriously. Those are your only choices. Now, there are some nice classes to have for friendly NPCs that are not on this list. Let's go over them.

Techie- This is bare bones right here. You don't even want to use a feat or class ability to have one. You just want to know one and have enough diplomacy to have your shit upgraded.

Acolyte- Acolytes, especially with the Urban Arcana web enhancement, are extremely badass at solving adventures before they even happen with their wide range of divination spells. They also have access to the only raise dead effect in the game. I can't tell you how berserkly effective raise dead is for murder mysteries. Unfortunately, you get it at character level 12, minimum. Oh, well. Actually, if you anticipate having a lot of mystery, you might actually consider taking levels in this class. Acolytes are by far the best mystery-solvers in the game and they have decent offensive and defensive abilities to boot.

Arcane Arranger- You want one as a cohort if you're playing in Urban Arcana. Seriously. It's the only surefire way to get the magic items you need to even hang on.

Technomage- See Acolyte. A technomage has the added advantage of, with an Eldritch Cellphone, being able to teleport all over the continent.

Archmage- You may want to combo this class off of (Techno)mage. In fact, you're pretty much going to. You want the abilities that let you make magical weapons and armor. Trust me on this.

Inventor (d20 past)- Strictly inferior to Acolytes and Mages. However, they still have unreplicable abilities so if you're playing in a campaign where only these guys are allowed you might want one.

It seems to be mostly an equipment/item driven setting much like Ghost In The Shell.
Cybernetics can easily overshadow many martial abilities, and spellcasting will appear weak compared to, say, a sniper rifle or grenade in the right hands.

Field Officer- You give really large bonuses to your friends and family and gain a crushingly huge diplomacy check to boot. It also comes with FULL BAB, decent hit die and saves, and lots of defensive abilities.

Holy Knight- They get an upgraded version of detect evil that's much faster and accurate, gain divine grace, a smite, the ability to lay on hands and HURT people with lay on hands, spells, great saves, and full BAB. Seriously, when you're playing this game, you're wondering why you DON'T want to be a Holy Knight.

Shifter- You take a BAB hit but then run around in a 32 strength, regenerating form with large amounts of damage reduction. Kickass.

Shaman- Pick an ape. Spiritmeld with your ape. Squeal in joy as you get a huge strength boost for no reason and even get goddamn MULTIATTACK. Oh, and you also get stoneskin. Kickass.

Psionic Agent- You fly, you teleport, your bullets go through walls. This would be a worthwhile class if it only came with that. Curiously enough that's about all there is to talk about the psionic agent so it works out.

Gunslinger- You gain mild bonuses and an extra attack outside of the BAB structure. Neato. Not really.

Martial Artist- Subdual damage is an OMG insane attack mode later in the game. Like, you can solo adult dragons with no trouble. Martial Artist makes you much more likely to hit and hit harder with your subdual attacks. If your DM is being a huge cock and won't let you go Shadow Slayer, this is the next best thing.

Shadow Slayer- You heal faster than goddamn Wolverine, get full BAB, get a really huge (for this game) damage bonus against people you hate, considerable amounts of damage reduction against fantasy creatures, and as a cornerstone ability you spend action points and automatically win against fantasy creatures.

Gangster- SNEAK ATTACK, BITCHES. This class is like having all of the win features of a rogue that took crippling strike and opportunist. You also get a huge bonus when intimidating people. Sweet cuppin' cakes.

Soldier- Only pick this advance class if your DM decides to go by the unerrata'd version, for some reason your DM goes unerrata'd but won't let you go goddamn field officer, and you have a ridiculously high intelligence bonus. I mean a +4 going in. Then you'll end up as an inferior field officer. It's more of a consolation prize than a class.

The unerrata'd Soldier, Lago? I have SRD right here but don't know of 2 versions of it.
What changed?

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1190619712[/unixtime]]The unerrata'd Soldier, Lago? I have SRD right here but don't know of 2 versions of it.
What changed?

Here's a wild guess: they nerfed it unnecessarily

They nerfed the Soldier's tactical aid ability.

It used to give all allies in range a bonus to attack or defense for a number of rounds equal to your intelligence modifier. Not bad, but not exactly good either.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190595117[/unixtime]]I know what Lago thinks of D20 Modern, but what of the rest of you guys?

When I first saw D20 Modern I thought, "that's nice, but what's the point?" It was completely lost conceptually. D20 is supposed to be a fantasy style system not a simulation game. Yet if you take out the fantasy out of the game there's nothing left. I never bothered with D20 Future so I don't know if sci fi fantasy goodness was thrown in but in the original modern I was frankly bored.

It was like one of those WWII German half tracks. It's nice but if you shoot the front tires it's just as dead as a four wheel vehicle. D20 Modern was one of those ideas where the wron things were gutted from the system leaving only the inferior crunch parts.

D20 Modern was one of those ideas where the wron things were gutted from the system leaving only the inferior crunch parts.

However, I do find that Urban Arcana is one ballin' campaign setting. It's like Shadowrun with the horror and action kicked up a notch.

How does it go about being that?

Everything I liked about Urban Arcana:

1. The illithid gangsta' smoking a cigar, holding a Tommy gun. With bugbear mindslaves looming.

2. That drow girl with her low pants.

Neither of which have much to do with the actual game itself.

How does it go about being that?

Okay, the deal is that the modern Earth is performing a contact fusion ala Yu-Gi-Oh GX with Greyhawk. While Earth is usually the winner of these reality exchanges, some things from Greyhawk leak over. This can be magic, classes, items, but most commonly monsters.

You'd think that having a troll walk the streets would cause mass panic, but it doesn't. The premise of the setting is that things like hell hounds and sentient piles of toxic waste DO exist but that most people unconsciously turn on the magic of self-delusion when confronted by it. For example, if a group of dragonkind ride the subway with fangs and everything then people will think that they're just a bunch of bums with skin disease. If a dragon breathes fire at an ogre cornered in an alleyway, bystanders would see some really large bum getting roasted alive by some malfunctioning old-style boiler. A +3 unholy longsword would have people rationalizing that it must have been one of Himmler's personal weapons--that's where they get the creepy feeling from. So on.

Some of these creatures want to exploit their invisibility and abuse their powers to do things they would never get away if people could see them for what they are. Some just want to live normal lives and get caught up in the weirdness of the world fusing with Greyhawk.

Your protagonists can see this world for what it is. Hijinx ensue.

It's like Shadowrun in where there's a constant theme of laying low, paranoia, and deception. Unlike Shadowrun you can cast spells in the middle of the street and grapple with bugbears and no one will bat an eye. So it's actually an inversion of Shadowrun's basic trope: there, the flashier your attack the more likely you are going to be spotted and killed. If you shoot a foolio zombie in the face people are going to yell at you for picking on disabled people with rabies. However, if you explode a horde of them with a fireball, people are going to wonder why some lunatic is waving his hands and chanting--and fail to pick up the fact that this might be related to a bunch of bums caught in an explosion.

In short: ballin'.

I approve of this concept. The bit where you wave your hands about, and then there just so happens to be an explosion. Which someone records on their cameraphone and posts on youtube as "lol it looks like this guy blew stuff up with magic".

In other words, it's a combination of The Matrix and Lord of the Rings where instead of fighting Agents you fight other Zionians and hobbits.